Bug 134175

The fact that you're thinking about changing the distribution, does not make this a blocker. Reducing severity.

This is no bug. The development headers can be found in the *-devel packages (here: postgres-devel). Additional packages can be requested using the Wishlist: http://www.opensuse.org/Package_Wishlist

Your classification makes no sense to me. If you want developers in your community developing for and on your platform, then the development tools are essential.

My perspective as the reporter is that this lack makes your distribution of limited value: to me it's a blocker.

The only postgresql package in SuSe that I can find is the client libraries. Neither the server nor the -devel packages are present. Further, packages required in order to build postgresql are missing including pam-devel and gettext.

These missing packages (and I don't mean that they are not installed bu rather that they are not on any of the five CD images) serve to demonstrate that SuSE 10 is not a suitable development platform.

Further, I had a look at the wiki, even registered so I could update it,and having done so couldn't understand how to update it. Even if I did update the wiki, I don't see how my thoughts are safe from being replaced with spam (as happend to one of the other oSS sites, I think Bruce Perens userlinux). In contrast, buzilla, for all its faults, provides a safe log of what's said.

As we stand, SuSE 10 is not suitable for my needs, any more than if I couldn't install it at all. That supports my original classification. SuSE has built packages from SuSE 10 source and then omitted them from the packaging. To my mind, that constitutes a bug.

So far, your responses tell me you really don't want developers using your platform, finding bugs, suggesting enhancements or creating patches If you did, the packages they need for software development, including those needed in order to build postgresql would be shipped as part of SuSE 10.

most of the devel packages are on the ftp server only, because of the space limitation on 5 CDs. 

If you add

ftp://ftp.leo.org/mirrors/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.0-OSS/inst-source/
(this is a german mirror, you can of course use another one closer to you)

as installation source in YaST, you can simply install all the devel packages which are not included on the CD Version with YaST.

I will close the bug now, the packages are there, just not on the CD images. Please reopen if you think it's still a bug, thanks.

This is way more sensible a response than that of mgross. I was ready to allege a GPL violation - how much software requires getext-devel to build?

While I think I know what to do now, you've not addressed the underlying problem which is that I could not find the software I need.

If there'd been a sixth (even more) ISO to download, I would have downloaded it and not had the problem.

If you don't wish to distribute a sixth real CD, then I suggest you document how to get the extra software. Suitable places would be the README on the first CD, and the SuSE icon on users' desktops. I looked in both these places.

btw I suggest you have a look at Debian's download tool, jigdo, which allows distributors to ship small template ISOs, and users to fill them out downloading from any one or more mirror that carries the packages. It can be run on *x and on Windows, and could be wrapped in a script (.sh for *x and .bat for DOS) to simplify its use.

i guess the problem is that the mirror servers will not be very happy when we add another image (and i'm not sure if one will be enough). Even when you say it's additional software that only developers need, everybody will donwload it :-)

the readme is a good idea, i will look into this on monday. i will set this bug now to enhacement but let it open.

The mirrors I use have CD and DVD images, but not the indivudual packages. Use oe jigdo might change that - they could choose to carry the jigdo templates and packages, but not the ISO images. I can't have DSL here, but when I did I found installing directly off the Internet acceptable. Using Jigdo you could also contemplate bigger ISOs, for DL-DVD and HD-DVD and such.

You also need to look at package-ordering. I did a standard install,and needed all the CDs. If you install from a webserver, you can get the package ordering needed and use that to inform the ISO build process. It should be possible to create two CDs that will satisfy most people. I know there's stuff on the first CD most people won';t want - lilo, netcat, uml-utilities tcsh, canna* bc and probably lots more.

Another fine-tuning idea might to be to put sysadmin stuff - netcat, telnet ssh and whatever sle seems good all on one CD, all developer tools (emacs, kdeveloper, *-devel and suchon another), serverstuff (postgresql, slpd, slapd etc on another. I'm sure my categorisation is imperfect, but take as an idea to debate amongst yourselves.

Whatever you do, make sure it's documented where people go to download your software.

This doesn't bear on finding the software I want, but it does obear on your concern about mirror space. Make sure you can install off a DVD that has the ISO images in it. It would be convenient for advanced users to unpack a boot CD image which might be only 10 Mbytes or so, and create a new one with the ISOs init. Maybe
mount -o loop  /mnt/iso ...
cp -pr /mnt/iso iso
cp -l suse-ISOs/* iso/ISO
mkisofs ...
 then burn and boot the result.

Then you'd not need to create separate DVD-sized ISOs at all.

On http://www.opensuse.org/Released_Version

you will find:
---
Due to size limitations of CD images, you get only a subset of all packaged software for SUSE Linux.
---
Ok, this is not very verbose ... 

about jigdo: christoph, is there something planed like this?

We had some jigdo files for 10.0 final to conduct a field test. Apparently noone used them so far, because we just recently got a bugreport that one of those files was broken (which was fixed today). I'll look into jigdo again for the next alpha release.

Besides that, I like the comments on package ordering - but unfortunately it's not that easy. Maybe Rudi can add a comment on this.

Taking Rudi and AJ into CC.

"Due to size limitations of CD images, you get only a subset of all packaged
software for SUSE Linux."

That is silly. Ubuntu comes on one CD, but there's still access to many thousands of packages. Why can't Yast be taught how to find the rest? If Yast says package <whatisit> does not exist, why would anyone suppose it does?

As to package ordering, Qs by the under-informed are never so simply answered, but your Q should be "How do we...."

Another reason to get package ordering right is because installation from CD and DVD will be faster from less seeking. 

yet another: people don't like inserting a CD more than once, and I think I did.

btw I don't see what outstanding Q you had for me.

I'll take care of this eventually.

Add comment #10: We plan to add such repositories for 10.2.  There're various duplicates, I close this report.